tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8005490685220949062.post2264144493832599560..comments2023-10-18T10:32:30.713-05:00Comments on American Testament: The Book of Mormon: "Tis Enough; Mine Eyes Have Beheld": Responding to Criticisms of the Book of Mormon WitnessesAmericanTestament.comhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04127465919258708936noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8005490685220949062.post-76886325367452376572009-08-05T14:12:13.602-05:002009-08-05T14:12:13.602-05:00I do believe that Rob's comment represents a s...I do believe that Rob's comment represents a serious lack of knowledge in relation to the "translation" process. It is not as if Joseph knew "reformed Egyptian" either nor was the text of the Book of Mormon produced via a handy "reformed Egyptian" grammar and a set of gold plates. <br /><br />And interestingly, the witness statements in the 1980 edition do not include anything to the effect that the translation was "authentic." Merely that "the work is true" or that "these things are true." They base their assessment on what God told them, not upon any knowledge obtained through intellectual inquiry. If God appears to you and says, "I command you to bear witness of this book. It is a record of ancient peoples and the translation is altogether correct" what precisely are you going to do?<br /><br />It would appear that Rob would respond "Hang on a mo' there, if you would just provide me a reformed Egyptian grammar so that I can check the translation myself then I can be sure it's truly reliable and bear witness of that." The phrase "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" springs to mind.<br /><br />Regardless of the divine assurance they are relaying these men actually saw and held the plates. Early on, previous to his experience as a witness Harris had opporuntity to heft the plates although he was not allowed to see them, he noted that the plates were either lead or gold and he knew that Jospeh did not posess the funds to buy even a sufficient quantity of lead.<br /><br />And precisely how did Joseph some up with the Urim and Thummin, the Sword of Laban, and the Liahona? These were actual items, things they beheld and handled. Even if he could have slipped the three of them a bit of peyote whereby they halucinated angels and voices from heaven we are left ask how he ever managed to fabricate these wonderful artifacts.<br /><br />And remember, there is nothing supernatural about the testimony of the eight witnesses. They provide in concrete terms the experience of handling the plates. It wasn't a block of lead. It looked gold. There were individual leaves. There were "engravings" on the leaves and they had "the appearance of ancient work" and "curious workmanship."<br /><br />The facile "You need to be an expert the render and expert opinion" is not only unconvicing, it's irrelevant. They were relaying an expert opinion, not independantly declaring one. They could certainly do that much quite admirably. I would assume that if one believes in God one would consider His opinion on the accuracy of a translation sufficient.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8005490685220949062.post-30005208270472635172009-08-05T12:36:21.213-05:002009-08-05T12:36:21.213-05:00Nice little summary.Nice little summary.BHodgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01751807169882645742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8005490685220949062.post-87741455503091275312009-07-08T12:47:48.102-05:002009-07-08T12:47:48.102-05:00Hi Rob.
I think that a number of things corrobor...Hi Rob. <br /><br />I think that a number of things corroborate the witnesses' testimony. The first is that the Three and Eight Witnesses testimony compliment each other. Without the Eight Witnesses, who do not describe their experience in any sort of supernatural language or terms, the Three Witnesses could be dismissed as delusional or visionary. But the Eight Witnesses cannot be dismissed as such because they don't describe any spiritual activity; just seeing plates. Likewise, remember that the Three Witnesses are the ones who said Moroni declared the translation correct, which would compliment the Eight Witnesses who, as you point out rightly, had no way of confirming the ancient origin of the plates they were holding in their hands. Does that make sense? The two sets of testimony go together.<br /><br />Likewise, remember that the Eight Witnesses' signed testimony say nothing as to the accuracy of the translation. Simply that they handled the plates. I think that the Eight Witnesses therefore received confirmation of the accuracy of the translation by other means, be it personal revelation or relying on the Three Witnesses' testimony which does say that Moroni declared the translation true.Steve Smoothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00785226026604586090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8005490685220949062.post-21901054801586799442009-07-08T01:42:59.840-05:002009-07-08T01:42:59.840-05:00Interesting article. I think the bigger issue not...Interesting article. I think the bigger issue not addressed is the fact that none of the witnesses were experts in "reformed Egyptian" and therefore none could make a credible claim about the authenticity of the translation.<br /><br />A person who does not understand German is not a credible witness that I performed an accurate translation into English.<br /><br />A claim such as "I had most assuredly seen the plates from whence the Book of Mormon was translated... and know of a surety that Joseph Smith, jr., has translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God" is not credible.<br /><br />One cannot claim the plates were the source of the translation if one cannot independently verify an actual and accurate translation took place. Likewise one cannot claim the translation was done by the 'gift and power of God' when that person cannot independently verify the source and accuracy of the translation. Since no one outside of Smith has been able to translate "reformed Egyptian", there can be no credible witnesses.Robnoreply@blogger.com